Comments on: Geeks, sex, gender, and physics http://www.shessuchageek.com/2007/01/20/geeks-sex-gender-and-physics/ Thu, 28 Aug 2008 23:20:37 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.0.5 by: » Blog Archive » Scientiae blog carnival http://www.shessuchageek.com/2007/01/20/geeks-sex-gender-and-physics/#comment-3136 Mon, 05 Mar 2007 22:11:29 +0000 http://www.shessuchageek.com/2007/01/20/geeks-sex-gender-and-physics/#comment-3136 [...] I know, nobody likes to think of the possibility of bad things happening to them. Neither did I, and it didn’t keep misfortune at bay anyway. (I’ve written about this before.) But I’ve harped on it before, and I’m going to harp on it again: women in science need to find mentors—which is not necessarily synonymous with your grad school advisors!—in order to learn the way to play the science game that nobody teaches girls in school but which you need to know to succeed in the male-dominated science world! And we have to keep sharing our stories, which is why I love this Scientiae blog carnival. If we don’t know that we’re not alone, we can’t begin to change the status quo (and there’s a heck of a lot of status quo to change). [...] […] I know, nobody likes to think of the possibility of bad things happening to them. Neither did I, and it didn’t keep misfortune at bay anyway. (I’ve written about this before.) But I’ve harped on it before, and I’m going to harp on it again: women in science need to find mentors—which is not necessarily synonymous with your grad school advisors!—in order to learn the way to play the science game that nobody teaches girls in school but which you need to know to succeed in the male-dominated science world! And we have to keep sharing our stories, which is why I love this Scientiae blog carnival. If we don’t know that we’re not alone, we can’t begin to change the status quo (and there’s a heck of a lot of status quo to change). […]

]]> by: Nicole http://www.shessuchageek.com/2007/01/20/geeks-sex-gender-and-physics/#comment-1097 Wed, 24 Jan 2007 01:12:04 +0000 http://www.shessuchageek.com/2007/01/20/geeks-sex-gender-and-physics/#comment-1097 I'm so glad to read this post. So glad someone else sees the situation as it is (way too overcrowded, most people will end up leaving with shattered dreams). I'm in the midst of leaving academic astronomy (two great job offers, and I'm on my way to another interview), and it feels great. Other postdocs used to tell me I'm 'cynical' and I shouldn't 'give up'. They appear to be happy to toil away until they're 40 with the hope that they might get something permanent, but that is not for me. It is a shame, science is fun and interesting, but I can't encourage anyone to pursue that path. Only a very few will end up with the job they had in mind when they started. Engineering on the other hand, seems to have good career possibilities. I’m so glad to read this post. So glad someone else sees the situation as it is (way too overcrowded, most people will end up leaving with shattered dreams). I’m in the midst of leaving academic astronomy (two great job offers, and I’m on my way to another interview), and it feels great. Other postdocs used to tell me I’m ‘cynical’ and I shouldn’t ‘give up’. They appear to be happy to toil away until they’re 40 with the hope that they might get something permanent, but that is not for me.

It is a shame, science is fun and interesting, but I can’t encourage anyone to pursue that path. Only a very few will end up with the job they had in mind when they started. Engineering on the other hand, seems to have good career possibilities.

]]> by: Zuska http://www.shessuchageek.com/2007/01/20/geeks-sex-gender-and-physics/#comment-1095 Wed, 24 Jan 2007 00:21:03 +0000 http://www.shessuchageek.com/2007/01/20/geeks-sex-gender-and-physics/#comment-1095 I know Carpenter means well...but it just drives me nuts that sooner or later, in every conversation about women's issues, inevitably someone will at some point say "but what about the men?" I get so friggin' tired of hearing that on my blog. My blog, and SSAG, are about WOMEN. It is pointless and frustrating to ask why there is no discussion of men leaving science in SSAG, or why I am not talking about men's issues on Thus Spake Zuska. Because obviously, SSAG is about WOMEN, and TSZ is about WOMEN in science and engineering. Have a conversation for 5 minutes in which men are not the center of the conversation and people get frantic. Why aren't we talking about the men? Please note that this is not Carpenter-bashing. What I am doing here is trying to point out a very, very common social phenomenon. That is, just as nature abhors a vacuum, society abhors a conversation in which men are not the focus. With a whooshing sound, someone must swoop in and try to redirect the conversation to its proper focus, men. You wrote a book about women's experiences in science and engineering? Why didn't you also talk about what it is like for men, since many of their experiences are in common? So what if there are things that are particular to women you wanted to talk about? You have a blog about women in science and engineering? Why are you always talking about women? What about men's issues in science and engineering? Men have a hard time of it too, you know. And then women, because we are so polite, engage the person who wants to talk about men, and offer helpful suggestions like yes, maybe there should be a book that examines whatever issue it is that the person is suggesting we should spend our time on instead of whatever it is we WERE talking about before we got derailed. Gahhhhhhhhhhhhh. I know Carpenter means well…but it just drives me nuts that sooner or later, in every conversation about women’s issues, inevitably someone will at some point say “but what about the men?” I get so friggin’ tired of hearing that on my blog. My blog, and SSAG, are about WOMEN. It is pointless and frustrating to ask why there is no discussion of men leaving science in SSAG, or why I am not talking about men’s issues on Thus Spake Zuska. Because obviously, SSAG is about WOMEN, and TSZ is about WOMEN in science and engineering. Have a conversation for 5 minutes in which men are not the center of the conversation and people get frantic. Why aren’t we talking about the men?

Please note that this is not Carpenter-bashing. What I am doing here is trying to point out a very, very common social phenomenon. That is, just as nature abhors a vacuum, society abhors a conversation in which men are not the focus. With a whooshing sound, someone must swoop in and try to redirect the conversation to its proper focus, men. You wrote a book about women’s experiences in science and engineering? Why didn’t you also talk about what it is like for men, since many of their experiences are in common? So what if there are things that are particular to women you wanted to talk about? You have a blog about women in science and engineering? Why are you always talking about women? What about men’s issues in science and engineering? Men have a hard time of it too, you know.

And then women, because we are so polite, engage the person who wants to talk about men, and offer helpful suggestions like yes, maybe there should be a book that examines whatever issue it is that the person is suggesting we should spend our time on instead of whatever it is we WERE talking about before we got derailed.

Gahhhhhhhhhhhhh.

]]> by: Catherine Devlin http://www.shessuchageek.com/2007/01/20/geeks-sex-gender-and-physics/#comment-1088 Tue, 23 Jan 2007 14:25:06 +0000 http://www.shessuchageek.com/2007/01/20/geeks-sex-gender-and-physics/#comment-1088 Undergrad programs are usually reasonably well-planned - if you just plow into the curriculum and keep pushing, you'll get through. Even a disastrous relationship with a professor can, at worst, derail your progress in a single class. All the problems are ultimately solvable. Just be a good kid and you'll be OK. So we get our bachelors' degrees, and we run merrily into graduate school, expecting that hard work and enthusiasm will carry the day there, too... and it turns out that grad school offers all sorts of deep, mucky interpersonal and technical pits where you can get badly, badly mired; you need a sort of caution bordering on cynicism that you never needed - that I certainly had never developed - before. Undergrad programs are usually reasonably well-planned - if you just plow into the curriculum and keep pushing, you’ll get through. Even a disastrous relationship with a professor can, at worst, derail your progress in a single class. All the problems are ultimately solvable. Just be a good kid and you’ll be OK.

So we get our bachelors’ degrees, and we run merrily into graduate school, expecting that hard work and enthusiasm will carry the day there, too… and it turns out that grad school offers all sorts of deep, mucky interpersonal and technical pits where you can get badly, badly mired; you need a sort of caution bordering on cynicism that you never needed - that I certainly had never developed - before.

]]> by: Carpenter http://www.shessuchageek.com/2007/01/20/geeks-sex-gender-and-physics/#comment-1073 Mon, 22 Jan 2007 22:20:31 +0000 http://www.shessuchageek.com/2007/01/20/geeks-sex-gender-and-physics/#comment-1073 charlieanders, thanks. and it's totally awsome to actually be able to converse with ppl who put together a book I just read. yay for multi-media. charlieanders,
thanks. and it’s totally awsome to actually be able to converse with ppl who put together a book I just read. yay for multi-media.

]]> by: charlieanders http://www.shessuchageek.com/2007/01/20/geeks-sex-gender-and-physics/#comment-1056 Mon, 22 Jan 2007 07:15:14 +0000 http://www.shessuchageek.com/2007/01/20/geeks-sex-gender-and-physics/#comment-1056 Hi Carpenter, the decision to have a section of the book about women who "dropped out" of geekhood came from the fact that we had a bunch of really incredible essays that dealt with that issue. We certainly hadn't planned on including that as a section, but once we saw that it was such a major theme in people's experiences, we felt we had no choice. And because this was a book only about the experiences of female geeks, we couldn't really represent men's experiences as well. It would be interesting if someone found a way to capture both -- maybe a whole book about people who drop out of the academic sciences, featuring both men and women? Hi Carpenter, the decision to have a section of the book about women who “dropped out” of geekhood came from the fact that we had a bunch of really incredible essays that dealt with that issue. We certainly hadn’t planned on including that as a section, but once we saw that it was such a major theme in people’s experiences, we felt we had no choice. And because this was a book only about the experiences of female geeks, we couldn’t really represent men’s experiences as well. It would be interesting if someone found a way to capture both — maybe a whole book about people who drop out of the academic sciences, featuring both men and women?

]]> by: Carpenter http://www.shessuchageek.com/2007/01/20/geeks-sex-gender-and-physics/#comment-1053 Mon, 22 Jan 2007 04:50:05 +0000 http://www.shessuchageek.com/2007/01/20/geeks-sex-gender-and-physics/#comment-1053 Id also like to mention that when I was in grad school, there was a big deal being ade about advisors properly guiding and advising students. This is a huge crack in the grad pipeline, advisors neglecting students, encouraging them to take oral candiacy qual which the students then failed(this is the advisors fault), or having students waste away for years on project not going anywhere. In addition some grad students just get dismally bad advice from proffs when they first come in about the balance between qualifying exams classes and research. It would be great to have a warning about these kinds of problems ahead of time. In my own first year I got some horrific advice about classes which I was lucky enough to have completely ignored. In spite of this narrow escape I would also have liked to have a faculty mentor around to tell me to trust my gut, which was advice I passed on to younger grads. Id also like to mention that when I was in grad school, there was a big deal being ade about advisors properly guiding and advising students. This is a huge crack in the grad pipeline, advisors neglecting students, encouraging them to take oral candiacy qual which the students then failed(this is the advisors fault), or having students waste away for years on project not going anywhere. In addition some grad students just get dismally bad advice from proffs when they first come in about the balance between qualifying exams classes and research. It would be great to have a warning about these kinds of problems ahead of time.
In my own first year I got some horrific advice about classes which I was lucky enough to have completely ignored. In spite of this narrow escape I would also have liked to have a faculty mentor around to tell me to trust my gut, which was advice I passed on to younger grads.

]]> by: Carpenter http://www.shessuchageek.com/2007/01/20/geeks-sex-gender-and-physics/#comment-1052 Mon, 22 Jan 2007 04:42:12 +0000 http://www.shessuchageek.com/2007/01/20/geeks-sex-gender-and-physics/#comment-1052 hi I just to reiterate the point, my complaint was more that in book of essays by women, its hard to make the multiple essays about leaving academics not seem especially gendered. I know well that women in physics face an uphill battle and may have their own reasons for leaving, but I still the book would benifit from an essay about th large numbers of people who decide to leave that included both sexes. hi
I just to reiterate the point, my complaint was more that in book of essays by women, its hard to make the multiple essays about leaving academics not seem especially gendered. I know well that women in physics face an uphill battle and may have their own reasons for leaving, but I still the book would benifit from an essay about th large numbers of people who decide to leave that included both sexes.

]]> by: Women and Science at Freedom of Science http://www.shessuchageek.com/2007/01/20/geeks-sex-gender-and-physics/#comment-1049 Mon, 22 Jan 2007 01:31:51 +0000 http://www.shessuchageek.com/2007/01/20/geeks-sex-gender-and-physics/#comment-1049 [...] It does not surprise to me to read about what Absinthe has gone through inside a scholastic laboratory. The hierarchy is the male organism and female Absinthe is seen as an intruder. The enemy is the male hierarchy. [...] […] It does not surprise to me to read about what Absinthe has gone through inside a scholastic laboratory. The hierarchy is the male organism and female Absinthe is seen as an intruder. The enemy is the male hierarchy. […]

]]> by: Jane http://www.shessuchageek.com/2007/01/20/geeks-sex-gender-and-physics/#comment-1043 Sun, 21 Jan 2007 21:11:01 +0000 http://www.shessuchageek.com/2007/01/20/geeks-sex-gender-and-physics/#comment-1043 oops, that should say "and potential majors". My brain is working faster than my fingers, apparently. :) oops, that should say “and potential majors”. My brain is working faster than my fingers, apparently. :)

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